How to work WITH (not for) money to make your big dreams happen

If you're working harder and harder and the numbers are getting bigger but your life doesn’t feel like it's getting any better, this episode is for you. Join Terry as he reconnects with Mitch Parkins to uncover how he and his wife Brooke broke free of ‘the grind’ to get after their dream of travelling Aus.

In this episode:
  • The powerful psychological shift that preempted the change
  • The process, resources and tools they used to build the skills and confidence to fund their trip
  • The sequence of steps they took to ensure their experience isn’t setting them back, but propelling them forward.

Resources and links mentioned:

  1. The 5 life windows visual
  2. Episode 87
  3. Episode 88


Terry: 0:30

G'day dear listener, I'm your host Terry Condon and I'm excited to bring you another very, very good conversation that I've been looking forward to share with you for a little while. As you may or may not know, we've been doing a bit of work to better understand you, our audience, and just what you want to know more about. What kind of topics you want to see more of on the podcast and One of the key themes that have come out of those conversations is you want to know more about the folks we've had on the show, the stories that they've told, and you want to understand where they're at right now and what's happening for them, because obviously you kind of get invested in their stories. So I've got Mitch Parkins back on the show to talk about how he and Brooke have got together to be able to make this big dream trip happen. Now, if you don't know about this dream trip, go back to episode 87, Love and Money, the end of that series. And we talked about how Brooke and Mitch wanted to really do this round Australia trip. As we speak right now, I'm looking out behind Mitch and right behind you, what, what beach you on mate? I

Mitch: 1:25

don't even know what this beach is. We just drove in a straight line, from the beautiful campsite where we are up in the mountains, 10 minutes to the beach. If you haven't been to South Australia. You probably need to check it out. It is absolutely epic. I can't believe what is available within a 10 minute drive. It's insane. I

Terry: 1:47

feel like every time we catch up at the moment, I'm like, no, where are you now? You feel like where's Wally? Where are you now, Wally? What's happening? It is a bit like that. It's been epic to watch, like just the breadth, the depth, just all the different places you guys have been to. So I'm really keen to jump into some of those experiences here in a second, but why I wanted to bring you on the show and kind of. I guess talk about this topic is because I think yours is one of the better stories of really having a big dream, knowing that you want to do this thing and then actually making that thing happen in the timeframe. That's actually acceptable. Right. And I see this as one of the biggest struggles with folks that we work with that have already achieved at level of financial security, but I just struggled to give themselves permission to be able to actually go after what they want. Whatever that might be. And we have folks in the program who are very well off. We have folks that are multi multimillionaires and still suffer from this problem. And so there is no amount of money that changes this, but you guys have managed to sort this out and you have managed to sort of work your way through it. So I really wanted to dig into, I guess, the process that you've gone through to make this happen, dig into some of those details and give somebody those, that kind of nitty gritty, right? Because there's three parts, right? We kind of talked about this. There's the mindset, there's the skillset. And then there's a mechanics of this. So I want to talk about the internal journey that you guys have gone on, the tools of transformation that you've used, and then the step by step sequence, the decision points, the challenges that you faced along the way. So if you're listening to this right now, and you're feeling like you're working harder and harder, and the numbers are getting bigger, but your life doesn't feel like it's getting any better, this episode is designed specifically for you, because we know there are a lot of you. And hopefully this really, really helps. Mate, anything you want to say before we jump into this?

Mitch: 3:30

I'll bring it on. I'm pretty excited now. This is, it's a really big challenge. So, everything you've said there is just talking straight to, you know, my soul, where we were and that kind of transformation that we actually had to go through. So bring it on.

Terry: 3:44

Let's do it. So before we go into this, I really want to just set the scene. So you're in Adelaide, you're on a beach, the sky bar behind you. It's completely clear. The sand is white. This is like classic Aussie, where the bloody hell are you type ad territory, I reckon. Now, what have you been doing today and how did you get here today?

Mitch: 4:07

Yeah. So what did today look like today? It looked like, so I didn't actually train this morning, which is a rarity. I had the morning to actually just have a slow start. it's Brooke's birthday on the weekend and I'm trying to make it a bit of a festival of Brooke. Nice. So I cooked her a smoked salmon omelette and took some time with the kids and We mucked around and had a bit of a wrestle and yeah, we had a slow start before we all got together and discussed some really cool stuff this morning. So had a call with one of our lovely members, shout out to Jin, absolute legend. She's ready to get after it this morning.

Terry: 4:43

What about some of the highlights you've had along the way? So you've been on the road for how long now? we have been on the road since December 18th. Okay, cool. Sorry. So we're coming up against, we're coming up to nearly four months. Almost four months. It's actually

Mitch: 4:56

mind blowing.

Terry: 4:59

You were saying to me the other day, you feel like you've seen nothing.

Mitch: 5:02

Mate, anyone that is like, Oh, I really want to see Australia and I've got heaps of time, I don't think I could scratch the surface of this continent in 40 years.

Terry: 5:11


Mitch: 5:12

This place is massive, massive, and every corner is really, really different.

Terry: 5:17

You spent months just, just kind of getting around New South Wales.

Mitch: 5:21

We didn't intend on actually spending any time in New South Wales. We were there for three months and we loved every second of it. And most of it, so it was kind of split in half. Half of it we'd seen before and half was completely unique. We didn't even see half of New South Wales in that time. We

Terry: 5:41

saw a lot. All

Mitch: 5:41


Terry: 5:42

Now you told me that there was a day there that you and Brooke looked at each other and said, this is the best day of our lives. What was happening on that day? What happened?

Mitch: 5:49

So that was in and around the Yarrin gobbledy caves. There's a place called the blue pools up there in, that is New South Wales high country, but I'll just call it Victorian high country. And that is such a special place. And it was as a lot of these experiences are really out of the box. It felt like you were in Kakadu or. Like some kind of really far away place, but it was in our own backyard. And it was this sense of like, what, this is wrong. This we're not even that far from home. This place is epic and could thought he was an Octonaut. And now normally you could attest to this. I actually treat him like a human rucksack. I carry him everywhere as a training. This day he was like, no dad, I'm got an adventure. And he thought he was in Octonauts, conversing through some kind of passage. And it was, it was just the best way. There was, yeah, I'll never ever forget that day. That place is so special.

Terry: 6:48

Yeah, that's epic. What about, have you had any kind of moments where you'd be like, well, it could be a lot easier elsewhere? Is there any like challenging moments? Yeah.

Mitch: 6:58

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's not that easy for people living in a caravan all the time, especially if you hit rain or you hit 45 degree heat. Which we've hit both of.

Terry: 7:09


Mitch: 7:11

aspect where you're all kind of converging, you all need to kind of get your own stuff done and express your own energy and that can be difficult. But at the same time, it is those challenges that make moments like this morning where everything just feels really calm and like it should be that much more magical. It's kind of, I don't know, there's this hectic. Juxtaposition between when it's gnarly, but when it's, when it's incredible,

Terry: 7:39

I think I have. It's a somewhat of empathy for some of those situations. I spent the last four days down in Y River working on the beach down there and it was pretty rainy and like, it does get a little bit tight at times and you're kind of like, well, we got to work around each other and you can't rip each other's heads off. I'm guessing that this is. Giving you guys a pretty good appreciation for, I guess, each other and the luxuries we have at home and, and just makes the relationship stronger, right? Because you're just having more experiences in different contexts and finding out more about who you are. Have you learned more about your kids, actually, looking at seeing them in different environments? Has that been something that's shown up?

Mitch: 8:15

Massively. I, so, I felt really, really lucky when COVID did hit. That was kind of when Coop was born. And obviously it was like shut down and I was at home working and I thought I was really lucky to get that time with Cooper as he'd come into the world and kind of working with Brooke and going through that process. This is on a whole nother level to do it. The four of us now with Cody on the scene, game change their connection, our connection, the ability to dedicate time just to nurturing that is, is really, really cool. Like I actually. Earlier this week, you would remember this morning that the day I was at Macca's, I had to go into town to get my car serviced and I spent the day away from them. So I got home and Cody went absolutely bananas. Like this little, you've seen him, he's

Terry: 9:11

like this

Mitch: 9:11

little mini man, six months, it's hilarious, bouncing out of his skin. And it dawned on me that I'd just done something that every other dad does basically every other day or a lot of parents not. Father's mother's, the works.

Terry: 9:25


Mitch: 9:26

He only knows me in his life and he was bursting out of his skin to see me. And like, it almost brought a tear to my eye because I was like, far out. This is, he doesn't know any different. Like he literally has not experienced the day without me in his life. Yeah. That's amazing. That was day one and coming back in to see him, he was like, he'd won the lottery. I was like, this is how good is this? It was very cool.

Terry: 9:55

And you guys don't have a plan, right? There isn't a, an itinerary. There's no kind of schedule here. You're just sort of going, well, we like it here. We're going to spend a little bit of time. Oh, let's move on. Let's go to the next thing.

Mitch: 10:05

Yes, that is true. And look, Brooke is a teacher by trade, so she does write herself as a bit of a planner and, you know, planning out curriculums and structures is something that she's very accustomed to. And yeah, we just change our plans all the time because A, we don't know the B. We don't actually know what the weather will look like. You're broadly speaking, you know, the wet season, dry season, but just this week, we literally changed our plans from heading from Adelaide over to Perth to actually know we are going desert chasing again, and we're going to head straight up, not straight up. We're going to take our time to get to Uluru and, and head on up to Arnhem land and Darwin and, you know, Start making our way west of the Kimberley's. So we just do whatever we want now. Chase the sun. It was four degrees the other morning, right? That was the catalyst, to be honest.

Terry: 11:03

That was, you're like, Oh, we're out of here. We're done.

Mitch: 11:05

Pretty much. I kind of macro how to look at where we want to over index our time, which is Western Australia, Northern territory. And I was like, you know what, I think we've got to go North. And look, to be honest, there was a slight hint of mimesis. Something happened to us on the Murray. We met a beautiful family that camped next to us. So their next destination was the Flinders Ranges. I liked the idea of the Flinders Ranges, but we didn't kind of have it on our map. The next shop we went to, I bought a dozen beautiful eggs. They were from the Flinders Ranges. And I was like, Oh, I think we need to head North. So we are. So

Terry: 11:41

that's good. That's good. Well, look, let's jump into this because I do think that this is just one of the most valuable things you can understand. And it, and your example is such a powerful one because it's not like this has been easy for you guys. This is something you battled with for how long?

Mitch: 11:57

I would say from the day we arrived back from our honeymoon. First proper traveling experience was six weeks in our honeymoon traveling around Australia. Yep. And I'd say the minute we got back 2017, we've wanted

Terry: 12:11

to do this. Alright, so we're talking about seven years. So anyone that thinks that this is just like, Oh, these people are just this way inclined, completely wrong, completely wrong. You worked your ass off for that period of time, wondering and trying to figure out how to make this happen. So let's jump into it, mate. Cause when we talk through this, I guess this conversation, we thought about what's the best way to kind of go through and decode it. Those three components really did come up, which was, there's a mindset, which is a perception shift that has to happen. There's a skillset. period of skill acquisition, and then there's the mechanic which you described as working through the fear, giving yourself permission, making the decision, and then actually doing the action. So I'm keen to go into that first one. So let's jump into the big, big shift for you internally that had to happen for any of this to happen. How do you describe that?

Mitch: 12:58

There was a lot of perception shifts, but probably the really big one was ultimately that we weren't giving ourself the permission to live the life that we wanted. We were stuck in other people's kind of concepts of success or what you should do. And like, it was, you don't realize at the time you fully think you are doing the right thing. You are. Doing the responsible thing and inverted commas.

Terry: 13:27


Mitch: 13:27

And kind of doing what you think you shouldn't be doing, which is in turn not listening to yourself.

Terry: 13:34

Yeah. And

Mitch: 13:34

what you actually want.

Terry: 13:36

Yeah. Very, very weird. Quick question. Do you feel like you're doing the irresponsible thing right now?

Mitch: 13:42

No, ironically, I actually think we're doing everything we should be doing. To be honest, when I look at where I was before, I can't help but think I was actually being a coward, but it, but that's not how I felt.

Terry: 13:53

That's strong words, man. That's really strong words. Why is it such a strong kind of feeling or sense from you?

Mitch: 14:00

Uh, probably because for whatever reason, when you get in that grind, almost resign a part of yourself to it. If you think about me, so you've known me for a while, but before you knew me, I didn't let shit stop me. I got after what I wanted. That's good.

Terry: 14:21


Mitch: 14:22

And I pursued what I wanted like a bull out of a gate. But something in amongst COVID, parenthood, forging out a career, grabbed me and basically said you should be doing this.

Terry: 14:42

Yeah. I remember a conversation where you kind of mentioned to me that, It was this kind of click for you where it was like, okay, marriage now, okay. That's what the fun part's over. It was sort of like, okay, after that, then it's all over. And now you do the, you do what you in parentheses should do. Yeah. Say more about that. Cause I think it kind of ties into what you were saying there around, what you saw, what was modeled to you and, with your dad's life.

Mitch: 15:10

Yeah, for sure. So what I saw modeled from dad, like love him to pieces, lovely, lovely human being. But gee whiz, he, he resigned himself to work. And I feel like that's what I was starting very much to do. Like work was the only solution and I wasn't being a responsible husband, a good dad, like a good human. If I wasn't chained to my work. And there was this kind of shift when work stopped actually being something that I loved and found heaps of joy in. Like I am right now. And it became the slog.

Terry: 15:54

But your modeling was telling you you're doing the right thing by dealing with the slog. Cause that's what you do. Right.

Mitch: 15:59

Of course, because work is hard and you know, you should be grinding and like what else is there to do as an adult forging their way to this path of success.

Terry: 16:12

And so COVID sort of. Brought this to a head a little bit for you. And then you mentioned to me as well that, you know, we sat down and did that first session in life by design, that concept of the five life windows hit you in a certain way. Do you want to tell more about that?

Mitch: 16:26

Yeah. So I think there's a kind of convergence of things. So COVID was the first time in my life. And I think for a lot of people where we did experience no. So we were told no. Now, not all of us listened and whatever. And you know, it went however it went. But there was a real like, no, you can't do those things. I don't think till that point in my life there wasn't a part of me where it was like, whatever it is, if I wanted to go on holidays, walk my dog, see my friends who people didn't like or whatever, I just did it. For the first time in my life, no actually meant no. I think that changed something. I think it's changed something in a lot of this. falling into like this adulting pattern, working harder, harder, harder to then ultimately having the five life windows hold a mirror up at me. So I actually think it's worth explaining what the five life windows is at this point, because what I saw when you took me through the five life windows was frightening. Like it really shot a mirror at me in terms of all the things that I was either taking for granted. Was it being true to myself around or was ignoring, which was essentially that I am going to die and that my time here is not finite.


Just a quick note for you. here. If you're listening to this, there is a visual that you can access directly in the show notes in the description of this episode, right down beneath the title. Where you'll be able to see exactly what this five life windows is. And so, you know what Mitch is talking about. as he describes the next little part. Let's jump straight back into it.

Mitch: 18:09

So Five Life Windows is a very cool model that breaks life down into five specific stages of life. The first is freedom, the second is responsibility, the third is counsel, the fourth is exploration, and the last one is legacy, okay? Now, the ages are indicative, they don't actually matter. The dimensions that it measures life in are time, health, and money. And for Brooke and I, that's it. We were smack bang in responsibility and everyone that comes through the program, the people that are in responsibility really know they're in responsibility. So what happens in responsibility, your time, quite often you bring these beautiful things called vacuum, I mean, children into the world and your, and your time just disappears. It completely disappears. Your career grows, you take on more and more responsibility and quite often. It's just a combustion. It's the biggest change in our time that we have in life. Health's pretty good, like it shouldn't, it shouldn't be deteriorating. for me it was. And the money, if we're doing what it needs to be doing, giving it the time, it will start to compound at this stage in life. Now, the different stages change as we go through. So in freedom, you've got lots of time, really good health comparative with a little money. Responsibility we've covered. And then progressively as you move through life, if you do a really good job of decoupling, trading your time, From making money, you get more and more time back. Health, biology being what it is, starts to slide. And money, if you're doing a good job with the money, giving it time, it will compound. So as we get to the later stages of our life, it's actually not the money that stops us doing things like traveling around Australia. It's the fact that we have no energy to go and pursue the things that we want because our health is shot. So over lots of time, pinch of money, comparatively very little health. And I'm seeing a lot of those people. I see him every single day, actually. You mean on the road? Oh mate, I see it all the time. They rock up at these places that we're staying, like I'm, we're working, raising kids, doing all sorts of stuff. And what we can achieve in one day, they don't get done in a week. They bug it. They're like, they come into the place, they're shot. So what I saw when you showed me that life window was A, I was becoming my dad. So, there was parts of me that I just, I just slipped into like, I don't know, repeating those patterns.

Terry: 20:43

Yeah. You know what's interesting too, when I think about this, we've had a couple of discussions about this. It is not that you shouldn't be working hard. That's actually not the Oh hell no. That's not what we're actually saying here, is it? Because, what we're actually saying is. The mental model or the way that work gets done is actually very different. So you don't have to choose the same conditions under which you work, just because that's what you saw. You can change the conditions, which is exactly what you've done. Cause the internet, I've said this so many times and I'm going to keep saying it. The internet has changed the game when it comes to work, but most people still operate like it is the 1970s and you go on your set career path and you just continue to make that first choice determines all the other choices. And you don't think that you can ever get off and change things. Which is that's, that's the problem. That is the problem. It's like, Oh, I'll just do what I saw. But if you don't like it, you can change it. That's kind of really what you're saying, right? Do I look like I'm digging holes?

Mitch: 21:38

Yeah. Like totally. We're having a conversation. I was sitting on a beach. like you can work however you want. And work doesn't have to be unenjoyable or a slog. Like what if it was easy and you loved it?

Terry: 21:52

That's such a powerful question. What if it was easy and you loved it? If you actually just sat down and turned everything off for an hour and let your brain answer that question, you might be super surprised as to what you come up with, eh?

Mitch: 22:05

Yeah, you will be, you will be super surprised. You just have to give yourself permission to actually dream.

Terry: 22:12

So, okay, so the life windows really kind of smacked you in the face here. Massively, yeah. And there was a realization here around the work that you already had done and what you had done it for. So just take us into that moment and, and, and where we go from here.

Mitch: 22:26

Yeah. So. A typical week for me back then could have looked like up at four o'clock, to make sure I was on a 6 a. m flight, interstate flight where I'd spend four days away from Brook, to which most nights I was, you're working pretty late or, you know, dinners or socializing with work colleagues, into getting into studios very, very late, flying home on Thursday and producing content, uh, for different programs. followed up by live integrations for, again, different programs. So I'd get home on that Thursday night at around midnight. Hadn't seen Brooke yet this week. I'd be at the office by eight on Friday morning. I'd more often than not be back at the studio at Friday night, till 10, 11 o'clock whenever the footy finished. we were like the second last segment on the show, so we were right to the death of that broadcast. I'd be back home Saturdays at. Mostly I have to follow the racing, to make sure that any stories I was across and just generally needed to be across that. Sunday morning I'd be in at the footy show and, Sunday afternoon I'd be following the football. Sometimes still in the studio and I'd kind of do that all again. And I did that for a very long time. Some people are going to say, that's very

Terry: 23:44


Mitch: 23:45

Yeah, as a job, it was a good job. It was a great job. There's nothing wrong with the job. The sacrifice that goes into that style of, well, it's a lot of time.

Terry: 23:55


Mitch: 23:56

It's a lot of time. A lot of time away. lot of mental energy. And for the people who do fly interstate for work, you'll get this. It is shit. It's, it's not that fun. It gets old very quick. It's not like, you know, flying into Noosa for a holiday.

Terry: 24:12

Yeah. I remember I took this job for rugby and they were like, yep, you're going to be flying around. And I was like, Oh, this is gonna be super exciting. I'm in the business lounge and I'm in Qantas and all this stuff. And I'm about six weeks in. I'm like, yep, I'm done. Yeah.

Mitch: 24:24

Yeah. When it was five hours door to door to get some from home to the Melbourne office, I was like, and I'll do this twice. And then I traveled to.

Terry: 24:34

Yeah. A

Mitch: 24:36

lot of time.

Terry: 24:37

Yeah, there's probably a resetting of what we're doing this for, right? We sort of talked about this, you're working to maximize money, you want to work as hard as you possibly can, get as much money as possible as you possibly can, you get into this grind, and it's easy to get stuck here trying to just maximize money, return on money. But the point we're trying to make here, and I think the journey is, what is the point of maximizing money if it doesn't give you a return on life?

Mitch: 24:59

Yeah, I didn't start that process for more money. I didn't choose to get stuck into work as hard as I could for the sake of money.

Terry: 25:09

Yeah. I

Mitch: 25:09

wanted to have an epic life. I wanted choices.

Terry: 25:13

Yeah. It's interesting because choices, I think, like I, I, I wrote something a little while ago. I was like, I track money to measure progress. I track choices to measure success because if your choices aren't expanding in your life, you have more money, you have less choice and you're doing something wrong. I reckon it should be. Yes, I'm going really well with money and my choices are expanding. And that's where I think, you know, the whole focus on your net worth, you can get so stuck in that as another rat race. So I'm always like. Yeah, track your money to measure progress and actually look at whether your decisions are making sense and actually working out, but track your choices, track your choices over time, because that's actually where it's really at time. Time is the currency of the successful, not money. Yeah. You did publish that. I remember it. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, like, think about it. Like, what are you doing right now? You've got more choices. You're enjoying more of these choices with the people that you love making memories. We just touched on a few before, but think about this, right? We said before return on life, a memory is the most valuable asset that you can ever own because it only ever appreciates and it can never be taken. It is the most valuable asset you have. So if your money isn't getting you memories and you're having less choices, it's just time to reassess. I reckon, isn't it? It's not about dying with the most money. It's about dying with the least regrets.

Mitch: 26:41

I don't think I could have said it better myself. And until you understand what each of them is, you actually don't know what you are optimizing for.

Terry: 26:49

I think that's the most important insight. That keeps everybody stuck because you can read almost any newspaper article. You can listen to any news report, you can hear any interview, and any of those words could be used to be, to describe the same thing. Wealthy, means you've got heaps of money. Successful means you've got heaps of money. Successful means you're famous. Successful means you've got heaps of money. They all just could be used for any of them, and were never clearly defined at all. Not at all. So you're a hundred percent right, being able to detangle them all and actually go, hang on. What is success? What is money and what is wealth? That, to me, is the most important conversation you can have with yourself and your partner if you really do want to make sure that you're working with money to make a better life, I reckon.

Mitch: 27:37

Yeah, and when that became clear that we, led by me, were certainly playing the wrong game, it was easy to correct it. Well, easy is probably a stretch, but it wasn't easy, actually, but it was easy to realise that we were playing the wrong game and that they weren't the same thing. Yeah. And then we could make a choice. It was like, okay, which game do we actually want to play?

Terry: 28:02

Yeah. Let's separate them out right now. Wealth and money. We've talked about this before. Wealth is having what you value. Having more of what you value. That's the return on life. Because if you've got a good return on life, you're having more of what you value. Money is how we measure and move value. Success. We just said it before. It's dying with the least regrets. And to me, I think you die with the least regrets. If you try your hardest to actualize your potential, whatever it is, just go in that direction and figure out how you can become the best version of yourself to leave the world better off than when you got here. That's for me what it is. I don't know. What about you? How do you see it?

Mitch: 28:44

I think what really became clear to me was success and money categorically weren't the same. So when you mapped out our life by design, yes, it was really clear that there was a monetary figure attached to. Some of those aspects, but that was success, how we wanted to live our life, the choices we wanted to have. And that was the only thing that was worth comparing progress to. It wasn't about a number in a bank account. And up until that point in time, that, that was what I thought was success. Just how much did we have? And when I realized that the pursuit of how much did we have actually meant that, Hey, we weren't actually pursuing our vote, our own. architected, like emotionally attached version of the success that we wanted. We weren't pursuing, weren't giving ourselves permission to go after it. I was like, far out. We've been saying this all wrong. And like, I can attest to right now, when you talk to the fact that. More money doesn't necessarily equal more choices or more happiness. I can attest to that fact right now.

Terry: 29:54

Yeah. I've

Mitch: 29:54

never made less money.

Terry: 29:55


Mitch: 29:56

In my whole life.

Terry: 29:57


Mitch: 29:57

I'd say I'm, I'm, I'm having clearly the wealthiest experience I possibly could. It's priceless.

Terry: 30:07

You know, there's going to be a fear, I reckon, that comes up for people there where they go, well, I can't have less. And we're actually not saying that you need to have less. There may be periods of time where you choose less. Yeah. To have more of what you want, but that's trading money for wealth, which is essentially what you're doing, which is the whole point. And it's also not to say that by doing this, you put your future at risk either. Cause the only reason you have done this is because you know, you're not, I think that's hard for people to wrap their heads around. So how do you, how do you kind of talk through that? Cause I know when you say that people be like, Oh, there you go. Just spending willy nilly, just throwing caution to the wind, completely irresponsible. That's actually the complete opposite of what you've done. And we'll talk about that more in a second, but how do you explain it?

Mitch: 30:51

How do I explain it? I think there's a couple of things that have to be true. Like you have to be living life on your terms. And in order to do that, sometimes you need to transition. There is also recognizing when you are investing your time and when you're trading your time and they're really different things. And that's been really hard to actually wrap my head around and reconcile. But they're not the same.

Terry: 31:15

No, I'd say you're making probably the most aggressive investments out of anyone. I know at the moment, that's not in the narrow context of money, it's across the board. So the investments that you're making in your family, in your life will pay off, but they'll be paying off in sort of 10 to 20 years in the relationships you have with your kids. The investments that you've made as well with that period of transition, moving from one industry, actually being willing to say, no, not that anymore, moving towards this and just building skills along the way. Those are aggressive investments that you have to make to be able to make that change. They don't pay off, but that is the nature of investing. When you invest, you don't actually put it in and get it out straight away because that's actually what trading looks like. Trading your time looks like predictable input, predictable output. And so that is actually the only way that you make that transition, isn't it?

Mitch: 32:04

It is the only way that you make that transition. And ultimately that is why I use that word coward earlier, because I realized that, That steady predictable paycheck had trapped me and I needed to break free from that because it's dangerous

Terry: 32:27

If we kind of redefine success is the least regrets then yeah, you're taking on risk more and more risk by day by day Huh? Yeah, you're actually piling up risk.

Mitch: 32:35


Terry: 32:35

are piling up risk Yeah,

Mitch: 32:36

like you're putting your fight in everyone else's hands ultimately So to be able to build skills where you can stand on your own two feet, I think that's

Terry: 32:44

It's also just getting into a place where you want to be like, you may find that your ideal pursuit, your ideal job exists somewhere else. The risk for you declines if you find that place too, because if you achieve mastery in that job, you're not expendable. And the only way for you to achieve mastery is to actually go and do something you're obsessed with. Go in that direction. I think that's a probably an important bit of nuance as well. And you still need to be investing. To make yourself more and more valuable over time as well.

Mitch: 33:16

You do. I mean, Brooke's pretty clear to me. She's like, what's the one thing you're obsessed with, Mitch? Mitch, you kind of love Australia a lot. It probably needs to be in pursuit of Australia.

Terry: 33:27

Well, I think about the story of Phil Knight, man. Before Phil Knight goes and starts Nike, he does a worldwide trip. He lives like a vagabond for 12 months and just goes around the world and sees everything. And I honestly think that in doing that trip, he's He learned more about who he was. He learned more about the world and the size of his vision, the impact that he wanted to create expanded because he could empathize with a broader variety of people and know those people that he wanted to kind of serve in some way. And I don't think that's a fluke. I think, feel not without the trip, feel not with the trip, different, very different futures, very, very different futures. So yeah, it's just bloody interesting. I think like, Why do we get stuck? It is that kind of like money is wealth and wealth is money thing, right? They're not the same thing. I'll say it again. Wealth is having more of what you value. Money is how we measure and move value. The analogy for me that I think best explains it is money is to wealth like plane tickets are to travel. Yes, having tickets makes it a lot easier to travel, but having tickets doesn't make you well traveled. You could absolutely have a whole A lot of tickets but die with an empty passport and a lot of people do.

Mitch: 34:43

And that scared the shit out of me. It really did. And the windows put it into perspective in terms of timing of the opportunity to actually back ourself and show my kids what it actually is to invest in yourself.

Terry: 34:59


Mitch: 35:00

And to be able to back yourself and get after it. Yeah.

Terry: 35:03

So let's dive into the biggest financial lie I think. Which is more money equals less stress. Cause I think this is probably what keeps us stuck there as well. Cause we think that money and success are the same thing. So we feel like we're being successful, but also if we have more of it, then we're going to have less stress, but it's actually never true. It's never true. There is no number that makes you less stressed. And I'll give you my proof point. And so we have people in the program, like I said before, who are multi, multi millionaires. And recently we had a member join who received quite a big windfall, like quite a big windfall, probably more money than anyone would ever hope to have. And do you know what her response was? She rang me and she's like, holy shit, I'm scared. I don't want to die alone. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be a burden on anybody. I don't want to fuck it up. And you're like, what's going on? You'd think that she's got no money. She's actually got the most money she's ever had in her life. And here's the insight, man. You think you want more money because it'll be less stress, but actually more money means more money decisions. And if you are not comfortable making small decisions with money, then you'll never make big ones. And so we get stuck just obsessively saving money, thinking that we're winning, but actually we're getting more and more trapped and controlled by money. So the skillset part of this, I think critical to actually understand how to work with money to get what you want versus having to work for money to get what you have. Just talk us through this part, mate, because you've gone through, you've had this big internal shift and now you guys are moving into actually saying, great, now how do we work with money to make it happen? Where do we start?

Mitch: 36:34

So once we know what money's for, and you've actually established that emotional connection with the future self, who's going to actually experience this life that you build, we start to get into structure. And the way I like to think about structure is an inspiring scoreboard for the things that you want in your life. It has to actually reflect what it is that you want.

Terry: 36:52


Mitch: 36:53

And it has to help you see the progress that you are actually making towards your goals, critical. From there, it's, it's really understanding, okay, how is money moving through your life? How are we tracking that spending? How is the money moving? From there, it is about money mapping, which is ultimately the process of contributing to your goals and actually allocating the money that you've made in the last month to the real month.

Terry: 37:16


Mitch: 37:17

Okay? Decisions, decisions, decisions, decisions. Forecasting out your future shows you what's possible and probable. And for me served a big dose of fear on a plate that showed me exactly what I was scared of.

Terry: 37:29


Mitch: 37:30

And then from there, it's literally the master plan. Yeah. So ultimately how are you going to use the investment vehicles? What investment vehicles are you going to use? What is your risk tolerance to actually bring that vision to life as quickly as possible? That's skillset text.

Terry: 37:46

Yeah. So let's go through like one by one. So that's pretty high level there. structure setting, use the word scoreboard. Let's just talk a bit more about that. What does that actually mean? How does that play out?

Mitch: 37:57

So I think for a lot of folks, the bank account feels like a sieve. Money comes in, money goes out, and it's barely functional. If you want to attract money into your life, if you want it to ultimately be something that you're really engaged with, that has a very defined purpose, it needs to be labeled accordingly. So for us, some of those labels that were in there was the caravan. It was a buffer and an ultimately there's lots of other things attached to that, but it needs to represent the things that you want out of life.

Terry: 38:32

Yeah. And you want to be making those conscious decisions and you want to be able to have, for me, I think it's about having a container for progress, right? So I see a lot of people and they have one account or they're just trying to sock it all into an offset and the offset. It's just like offset. That's what it's called. so what that does is it sets up a kind of a toxic relationship with money where it's like, should we or shouldn't we take the holiday? Should we or shouldn't we buy the thing that's going to help us with the holiday? Whatever it is, should we or shouldn't we? And so it feels like there's some sort of right or wrong decision, good or bad way to do it. Money's in control when you do that. You don't actually know, you know, right. Whether we can't see the opportunity costs of each decision and just to go back to the conversation I had with Brooke and John, which is a recent one, episode 104, Brooke and John were talking about this and they said that I had it all in one bank account. And John had actually put money in that account for a motorbike and then they struggled to see it differently. So when he was taking money out of the account, she was like, that's coming at the cost of our savings and that makes us all unsafe. And so it just kind of muddies your thinking. So you need to separate out your accounts so that you can actually create containers for progress. And that it surfaces those spending trade offs. So, you know, that if you're taking money from that account, that's coming from the motorbike fund or that's coming from the holiday fund, that is so much better than just being like, okay, that's coming out of the offset. We have the money, so we've got it. That's that creates that kind of mindless kind of spending. You don't see the opportunity costs of each decision. So to me, the structure part's critical because you just, as you said before, otherwise your bank accounts can be a sieve or that can be a, like a vault that you're never supposed to touch. Um, so that's the first part, mate. So the next part of this is. Money mapping or income mapping. So this is very different again. And we said, we said before, if you lack the commoners to make small decisions with money, you never make the big ones. The allocation part of this is really important. And the collaboration part of this is even more important when you're in a couple. So to say a little bit more about that and how that plays out over time.

Mitch: 40:37

I describe money mapping as like the thing I wish my parents had.

Terry: 40:40


Mitch: 40:41

So money mapping allows you to sit down and just have a proper conversation, a really good one. About how you're going to allocate your money. Just decision after decision, after decision, after decision, but it's not just like punishing stuff, it's also the cool stuff. So something that we did for a really long time was map a monthly camping experience as a family. So that was a family ritual that was dedicated towards memory building that we mapped every single month to make sure that we did something that we love. And when you just continue to do that, keep doing that, like you realize how much value that that's contributing. And you're like, far out, like the return on time for that initiative is astronomical. And likewise, the contribution to investment vehicles is a little weird. Every single time. It's not like this thing that's just automated that feels ultimately like an investment for the sake of an investment. It's like, great, that contribution is going to deliver that level of passive income for us.

Terry: 41:45


Mitch: 41:46

And that's a win. High five on that one. That's epic. Good stuff. We can't wait to do that again next month.

Terry: 41:52


Mitch: 41:52

Yeah. I'd literally describe it as the thing that I wish all parents knew about because ultimately the future that it creates for their kids is fundamentally completely different and the dynamic, everything.

Terry: 42:05

It's how you learn to enjoy money. It's how you learn to enjoy it, and play with it, and experiment with it, and use it as a resource in your life, I reckon. but it goes, goes hand in hand with the tracking as well, and the tracking of spending, so I think when a lot of people think about that, they go, I don't want to track every cent, I don't want to do any of this sort of stuff, and I, I totally get that. I don't like that kind of admin. If you have the right tools, it should make it very easy and fast for you to do this, and the value isn't that you can just constrict every cost, and cut down on everything, and just try to eliminate, and every expense. The value is actually you understanding what things actually do cost, so you have realistic expectations when you are mapping forward to the months. You sort of explained this to me and sort of showed me how getting really good at that feed forward feedback loop, building that awareness helped you understand what actually camping would cost, so that when you got into the forecasting component, you were able to Then you're able to actually game out what would it look like to be camping for a year and actually move from when can we do this to how can we do this? That was the biggest transformation you told me. So can you just say a little bit more about that?

Mitch: 43:11

Yeah. So mapping those camping experiences, tracking how much it costs time and time again, actually. Triggered something in my brain. I'd done a life by design session in Vanuatu and shout out to Carol, legend, Andrew, hope Cairns is good. This is so close, but it's not our life by design. I went back, I looked at some of the tracking and I looked at some of the experiences we'd had over longer periods of time and I was like, I'm going to reforecast this sucker. I'm going to actually bet on us and I'm, I'm not actually going to kind of ignore what we want in this forecast. What if we tried to do this now? It was actually not when I was like, who'd we do this now? How can we do this now?

Terry: 43:57


Mitch: 43:58

how it was how because the life windows like all Understanding what Cooper's out with school is like, how can we do this now?

Terry: 44:06


Mitch: 44:07

and Because I knew how much those experiences actually cost. I knew Roughly how much fuel we were likely to use not having electricity not paying a gas bill not paying water You All of these things I just started removing from the forecast.

Terry: 44:22


Mitch: 44:22

And started to punch in the realities that I knew from tracking. And I was like, shit.

Terry: 44:30

We can do it. We

Mitch: 44:31

can do this.

Terry: 44:32


Mitch: 44:32

We can do this.

Terry: 44:34

So this to me is the moment. That is possible for every, everyone, they never get to, because I, I see a lot of couples who are aligned in terms of what they want you, you kind of go, yep, you want this, we want more of this here. Fine. It's not the what it is, the how, how we work together with money and then how we figure out how to make it happen with money. And you cannot do it if you don't actually have a handle on your money. You don't know where the cash is flowing. You don't know where it's moving and whether it's aligned to those goals or not. So. Yes, you can do your automated spreadsheets and those kind of things. But guess what you're going to do? You're always going to have a number that keeps moving further and further away. It's like a mirage. when I get to there, I'll move it again. When I get to that, move it again. Then I get to that, move it again. And. Day by day, the risk is piling up and day by day, your time is slipping away. You actually did have the numbers and that is a huge change. I just can't emphasize this enough, not when can we do this? How can we do this? You had built the skills now to be able to answer that question. And also. You had the tool to be able to answer that question as well. So

Mitch: 45:39

what's always critical.

Terry: 45:40

Yeah. So what was it like coming to that conclusion, coming back to Brooke, having that discussion and going, we're going to do this?

Mitch: 45:50

Well, it was euphoric, but it was also, it was also the mirror was held up because it was obvious that what I was actually doing was emotionally forecasting, thinking that to bet on ourself was so scary, such a big risk.

Terry: 46:05


Mitch: 46:06

All of those things that we covered. And I was like, hang on a minute, we can do this and we don't have all the answers, but we actually got the skills and the know how to know that we can make this work. And not, not just could we do the trip, but by doing what we wanted, there was second, third, fourth order consequences of that.

Terry: 46:32


Mitch: 46:33

really, when they became clear, it was like. We can't not do this. We

Terry: 46:38

can't not do this. We can't not do this. So this is, I think, critical, this realisation, this point, because what you, what you're kind of getting to here is going, hang on a second, we can't not do this. If I was to time travel forward, to our 88 year old selves on our deathbed, and I was to say to them, hey, would you guys give up, one year of your life to make all that happen? Do you reckon they'd say yes? Let's be super clear about this. You're not going backwards. You're just not making as much because of the choice that you made. Correct? Correct. So you're not going backwards. What's the risk? It's just that number, that number's a little bit smaller, but you get more, get more of everything else you wanted for a, for a 12 month stretch, or at least.

Mitch: 47:25

The real risk for us was literally to die with the regret of not experiencing something that we'd worked so hard for, something that meant so much to us and something that could only be experienced. You know, a certain way at a certain time in our life.

Terry: 47:43

Amazing. So there's a slight intermission happening right now. and what's happened is the tides come up so far. it's coming up to Mitch's rig which is on the sand on the beach. So now he's having to move He's actually having to move the truck and the caravan and everything that's got here to make sure we can keep recording

Mitch: 48:05

Sorry about that mate, slight framing issue, but it's all good.

Terry: 48:10

Oh my god, so just if you're listening, we're back now because Mitch said to move the truck because Tides coming in and I'm slapping up against your ankles there for a sec, mate.

Mitch: 48:19

It was, mate. Yeah, I was about to be, um, Garry take two, where I sink a second truck into the ocean. Not good.

Terry: 48:25

All right, all right, let's pick it up. So, we've actually gone through the majority of the, the stuff with, with skill set here. There's just one more thing I wanted to touch on a little bit more. And I think it's, it's probably, you know, it speaks to that question of feeling responsible versus irresponsible. Right? Yes. And it's all about the planning. I've said it before and we've said it a few times. This isn't about just like who gives a shit we're going to make it happen. This still has to fit into kind of a bigger picture and you have to see how these things can add up and how these steps and sequences can come together over time. How does this fit in for you guys and what is the bigger picture and how are you seeing it?

Mitch: 49:02

So this is a really interesting point. If you look at investing as simply, you know, time in the market, then we'll have less time in the market. Okay. If, if you look at investing as self first, this is life defining, character defining, confidence building, everything attached to the person I want to be. Then there is the pursuit of our business, like stepping outside the employee mindset, you know, being the drone, realizing that, Hey, it's time to actually make some investments in yourself, in your own ability to drive and create value. The market's kind of third. And for us. This has actually been a process of, okay, what choices do we have available to us so that we can experience? I feel like a bit of a wanker saying this out loud, but like everything. So like we made decisions to free up equity that we could actually make investments in ourself, but also in the market in a different way. To create more equity, to create more choices for our future. And a big part of that had to be re engineering how we're making our money, but also how it was structured and recognizing what, what game we wanted to win. It wasn't just have, all of our value held in positions that didn't actually give us more choices.

Terry: 50:28

Yeah. There's a couple of specific decisions that you made here too that I want to jump into because you've been pretty thoughtful about how this has kind of happened. There was a sale of a Cronulla property that happened before this process. Is that right? That is right. Yes. Yep. Yep. Worst house, best street. So that is the freeing up of kind of capital. And then from there, there's been kind of the process of kind of quitting the job, building the new skills. And then now you're starting to starting to look at investing again, because you've kind of picked up the skills kind of what's the word started to move forward again. and now making plans to go, cool, we're having this experience and back to making progress when it comes to our finances. Correct.

Mitch: 51:16

Oh, categorically. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for Brooke to listen to the debt series and think about, you know, the Her future as a teenager versus her future as a business owner, leveraging the existing skills that she had to realize, Hey, like future me versus currently if nothing changes and I don't invest in myself, this is the outcome. I'm just going to be the best teacher making the same as the teacher next door who's the worst teacher, or I can actually start betting on myself, create a business, use debt as a vehicle. Like for us, we have really gone through a process of much thought. For just a minute. What is this actually all about? What are the choices that we do want to have and that we are actually experiencing and how do we get more of them?

Terry: 52:02


Mitch: 52:02

And yeah, a big part of that has actually been rejigging, different pieces of that puzzle and recognizing what is the order of our investments. If the market was the only pathway or the number one pathway, we wouldn't be here. We had to invest in ourself. We had to invest in our family. We actually had to give both of. our self permission to create and not just trade our time as employees. So,

Terry: 52:28

and the thing is, there is no more exponential return than the one that you make in yourself. And that's financially, but it's also from a life sense, because if you make that investment in yourself and you move more towards a life that you really enjoy living, and you're doing much better along the way, because you're actually really good at what you do, you're obsessed with what you do, you get. Like a double return, you get a spiritual return and a financial return. And those returns can happen damn fast, right? You get better at a certain set of skills. For me, I'm super deliberate about this sort of stuff. I'm like, great. What's the next skill set I need? How's it going to impact my ability to make a contribution? And how's that going to show up? And yes, it's stressful at times. Yes. You have to deal with the uncertainty. Yes. It feels like work. Yes. You don't know how it's going to go. And that is the pathway. So. You're really choosing between a life of perceived stability or a life of reality where you're basically betting on yourself and going, what am I capable of? The goal here is for me to become the very best version of myself and that's it. And if that's true, then everything's going to work out just fine for me because I'll be making a higher contribution than I am otherwise. And that question there has changed, changed the game for me in a similar sense as, you know, the same for you where you've gone, let's just stop here for a second, reconfigure and actually ask ourselves what game we're trying to play and what winning looks like.

Mitch: 53:52

Categorically, just for the record, it probably earlier sounded like we sold a house and then we were just sweet and like off we went. We re bought. Yeah, you re bought it. We re bought in a way that ultimately we could get more out of the capital that sat in that so that we could. Ultimately optimized for the life we actually wanted. Not just like, you know, a home.

Terry: 54:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, it's not like sell the house so we can do whatever we want. That's actually hasn't been the case. You've got the other house, which is now rented. Correct.

Mitch: 54:23

Yes. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

Terry: 54:25

So bought the, bought the other house. So you're still in real estate, rented it out now. So it's an income producing assets. And now. The plan moving forward now is to get duplexes on the block. Is that right?

Mitch: 54:37

That's correct. Yeah. So that place is now rented. and it's hilarious because now the place that we had in Cronulla, has since been developed and it's got a rather large price tag attached to it. And a friend sent it to me a couple of weeks ago.

Terry: 54:51


Mitch: 54:52

There was a part of me that was like, Oh, the old me.

Terry: 54:56


Mitch: 54:56

And the new me looked at it and went, Oh, that's hilarious. It wouldn't matter what number that was because what we are experiencing right now is priceless. And we have created the choices that we wanted.

Terry: 55:06


Mitch: 55:07

ironic thing is that before we knew what we were optimizing for, what we were optimizing to do was what this developer has done to our old house, put a new place on it. And that's cool. Like the price tags are relevant. The future that that would have actually meant was no trip.

Terry: 55:27


Mitch: 55:27

No choices.

Terry: 55:28


Mitch: 55:29

Chained to a desk, no ability to actually know my sons, ultimately, and a really, really different pursuit of mastery. It would not actually be doing things that help people live mad lives. I can assure you of that. So your points around compounding and mastery for us, this has actually allowed us to work out what do we really want to get great at and spend the time doing it.

Terry: 55:56

Yeah, we were laughing at that story yesterday, right? Because, you know, the fact that that person sent that to you, it's a little bit of schadenfreude about that, which is like, oh, look at this, you lost out on five million dollars. And we were kind of laughing, we were like, awesome, you're winning the rat race. Like, good

Mitch: 56:11


Terry: 56:12

Run harder. That's

Mitch: 56:13

it. It's like, mate, seriously, I'm absolutely living the dream.

Terry: 56:19

It's not, these aren't mutually exclusive. That's the point that I'm making, right? Look, think about what's going on in your life right now, but also how you're setting yourself up now with the existing property, plus the next step of the investments. Like I said, fast forward to 80 years old. Does your 80 or eight year old self care? They're like, Oh, no, like regret minimization. That is it. Right. This has been awesome. So I, how I've sort of decoded this quickly is quit your job, assemble the capital, finish the rig, find a remote work, build new skills, work together to master them, reconfigure the way the capital set up, make the trip happen. Set sail. Yes. Love it. That

Mitch: 56:59

is it in a nutshell.

Terry: 57:00

All right. As simple as that. That's why we took an hour to get there. Simple as that. Yeah, of

Mitch: 57:04


Terry: 57:05

Now, mate. What is your advice for someone who does feel, who's listening to this right now and going, fuck, that's me. I'm stuck. I have been winning the rat race and I've been losing the most valuable currency of my life, which is the time that I have and the choice that I have with that time. What do you say to that person? What's your advice?

Mitch: 57:21

So congratulations. You've realized you are really good at the rat race. Yep. Epic. It's time to work out what game you want to win. And until you actually define what success truly is to you, you won't, you won't actually escape the rat race. You'll stay there. So I'd say just get really, really clear on what success is for you. Yeah. Cause then you can actually start to optimize for a life full of choices that you love.

Terry: 57:46

Now, what about somebody who has well and truly won the rat race, mastered the money game, but is yet to start playing the wealth game. Someone who's stuck in the fear, got a big bank balance. The money keeps growing. The goalposts keep shifting. Everything keeps moving out over the horizon and life slipping away. What do you say to them?

Mitch: 58:05

Find a way to give yourself permission to get off to the life that you actually really want. And then they would say, how, and I would say, well, the reality is I couldn't do this by myself. If Brooke and I didn't actually go through the process of mastering our money, we would not be here. So I'd say get out of your head. You actually need to experience the future in the positive sense. And that's very, very hard to do for yourself. You actually, like

Terry: 58:37

you need to see. You need to

Mitch: 58:42

see categorically what you're missing.

Terry: 58:44


Mitch: 58:45

And you need to feel that you will be okay in the future actually doing what it is that you want.

Terry: 58:49

Yeah. That's good advice. Do whatever you can to go and see what you're missing.

Mitch: 58:54

Oh, I think it's really important to stress that this is not Mimesa safe. Like this is actually just defining what it is that you want. They're just making sure that you're doing everything you can to only compare yourself to the progress against the choices that you want to have. And then you know how to make them happen. If you're at all confused about what am I opting for? What optimizing for? Or how do I actually make it happen? Like it's tight.

Terry: 59:19


Mitch: 59:20

It's tight. And the greatest gift you can give your partner or your kids is the actual ability to work on this together. So I'd say if you're really truly stuck on the fear, just remember it is false evidence appearing real. Yeah. And I'd go and have a listen to episode 88, I think it is. Go

Terry: 59:38

to 88, go to 88, listen to that episode three times and then listen to it in your sleep.

Mitch: 59:46

Yeah. I still listen to that episode back.

Terry: 59:49


Mitch: 59:49

When we have moments where it's, Or, you, like, it doesn't, ultimately it doesn't matter what the decision is, there's elements where fear comes up. It never goes away, it's understanding how do I work through it continuously.

Terry: 1:00:04

Yeah. Yep. Mate, this has been epic. Thank you so much for taking us inside this whole process and I really do hope the folks who are looking for the nitty gritty detail got, got what they wanted out of this episode and I'm sorry that we didn't get enough for you the first time. We only have an hour each time, um, but hopefully we did today because it has been a very, very deliberate process. You guys have done it. very, very well together and you're now reaping the rewards and it's just so epic to see, mate. So, thanks so much for sharing it with us.

Mitch: 1:00:35

Oh, pleasure. Thanks for having me on and, get after it, people.

Terry: 1:00:39

Hey, before we go, where are you off to next? We're off to Flinders Ranges. Flinders, that's right. That's right. And then WA after that, is that right? Or Northern Territory? No,

Mitch: 1:00:45

no. So we were going to go WA, but we're going to head straight north. So Uluru after that and, uh, up into Arnhem Land and Kakadu and then head west.

Terry: 1:00:55

Yeah. Love it. Well mate, you guys enjoy it. Enjoy the rest of this day on the beach, let's catch up again soon. Thank you, sounds good.